How f'ing stupid is the Chia GUI design? Chia creates OG plots in the GUI? My June 2022 rant

Chia Plotting
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I have to resort to this kind of language to make my point.

The issue I’ve had is that I put Chia on the back burner since last August. I had minimal plots, maybe 6tb worth. Not joking. Should have done more, but simply didn’t.

But I’ve started again. Doing plots. What ended up happening is that I’ve created a cobweb of crud which simply should not be. A plot is a plot is a plot is a plot. Right? OG plots a thing of the past. They did away with them right?

Absolutely f’ing wrong.

Chia has to get their proverbial crap together. When you create plots, using their GUI, what does the last field say? It says…wait for it…it says…OPTIONAL. That’s right. Step 6 is optional they say.

So to spell this out more clearly. You want to create a plot. Great. Sure, you have your NFT. But in step 6 of the GUI, labeled “Join a Pool (Optional)”, what does that imply? It implies to me that you don’t need to select anything. Leave it because you’re all good.

So little did I know that in June 2022 that Chia still creates OG plots. The scourge right? Those pesky good for nothing OG plots. Sure. Read around. Expert simply say sort your plots by date and be assured that pre-July 2021 those are OG, everything else is the new NFT standard of goodness. WRONG.

I don’t know who designed the GUI interface or who decided that when you add * on a page/document, there wouldn’t be a * reference anywhere to be found. Normal people use * so that you make a notation somewhere, like on the bottom of the page. Not here. It’s in the GUI for the F of it apparently. Some explanation on the plot creation page of the GUI might be…wait for it…helpful?

That aside, there is nothing to indicate that if you don’t join a pool that you in fact will NOT be creating a plot with your default or only NFT, but rather…wait for it…you are creating…the good 'ol OG plot. Isn’t that great?

It took a long time to figure this out. Yes, I know. Idiots use the GUI. The fact is this. Chia is NOT USER FRIENDLY as it stands. OG plots are NOT supposed to be a thing. Not everyone is going to understand their NFT and understand that the GUI won’t use it unless you specify. It’s almost like if you don’t take specific action, like selecting properly, you end up with a POS plot or plots. It would be safe to say that Chia considers OG plots to be EOL. Correct?

Simply said, I cannot belive that in June 2022 the Chia GUI can create f’ing OG plots without any sort of pop up warning or guidance whatsoever. It’s more absurd to think they list this as “optional”.

Another question Chia can ask themselves is why the F would anyone in 2022 want an OG plot. If they can’t come up with something then please explain to me why their f’ing software creates them basically as a default. And without telling said user they just created OG plots.

No, I didn’t fill up 100tb of drives with OG plots. However I find this inexcusable. It defies logic. I also can appreciate that few here know what I’m talking about. Few likely have plotted in months and if you have, it wasn’t via the GUI. And yes, I know there is more than one path to using your NFT to create plots with.

I challenge anyone to explain what a “*” means on a page if you don’t explain it in the footer. That’s the entire f’ing point of putting this notation in the first place.

Lastly, step 6 should be mentioning something about self-pooling. But it doesn’t. As Chia price falls, self-pooling becomes more of an option. Maybe it’s worth being less obscure?

The Chia GUI is supposed to be for new or inexperienced users. It should be the most user friendly interface possible. Maybe the team hasn’t gotten feedback. I can say while troubleshooting my situation, all the articles are 2021 so not overly helpful. The content reflects the price and the netspace. There isn’t a lot of new discussion or interest or date relevant articles. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM. Most info is now quite outdated. Unfortunately for me when trying to find pertinent information on current Chia releases.

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OG plots are default because they are free. Pool plots cost a mojo plus a fee to get started. I would guess…
Does * mean “required field”?

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Just create NFT plots. Simple.

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I’m not the only one questioning how on earth the Chia GUI can create OG plots by default when they moved onto a new updated NFT system.
Yes * means required field on most planets, yes.
When at Part 6 in the create a plot, the dropdown says, “Select your Plot NFT*”. What planet are they from? This * doesn’t signify a required field. You can select nothing. Confused yet? I am.

Simple. The GUI should not have the ability to plot OG plots. Not without a pop up warning or some type of “do you really want to do this” warning in place.

  1. Join a Pool also isn’t so clear when people think of self-pooling. That’s NOT joining a pool. The Chia way? Oh yes, join a pool. Your self-pool is a pool too! Here a pool, there a pool.

I would suppose about 5% of viewers have plotted recently and .1% of that 5% probably have used the Chia GUI to plot with in the past 12 months.

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Lol I had exactly the same experience and my little rant is also here somewhere.

Wait untill you find out what happends if you create a cue of 80 plots and then want to cancel them

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They should delete plotting capability from the GUI, and leave only this:

  • ability to add a directory where your plots reside
  • abstract instructions of the key parameters needed to create plots

The concept that farming and creating plots are independent activities is one of the first things any beginner farmer has to understand. Having plotting functionality “conveniently” located in a bloated confusing UI doesn’t help.

I would advocate for having only command line interface for plotters bundled with Chia software. The GUI can have a “creating plot” help section with a few simple selections:

  • Plot type: NFT (pre-selected by default) or OG
  • Select NFT: dropdown with your plotnfts
  • Select plotter algorithm: vanilla (default), madmax, bladebit disk
  • Number of plots: 1 (default)
  • Temp directory
  • Output directory

The result should be a “here is the command you need to run” that user can copy/paste in the terminal.

The helper should automatically determine parameters like number of threads and RAM buffer, by inferring from system specs.

For advanced tuning and using extra parameters -just RTFM respective plotter.

– But rfc2324! - you would argue - Isn’t CLI going to deter people who are not competent enough to use it?
— Yes! But there is nothing shameful in being ignorant at the beginning. By helping them with “here is the command you need to run” you nudge people on the right path and give a chance to become competent.

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Certainly not good for nothing.
Youve seen all the reports of ppl losing coin?
Well if your keys get compromised, the person who has your keys can then keep messing with your nft and youll probably want to replot, but with OG plots , you simply need to send rewards to a cold wallet and your good, no nft to mess with, your farm / rewards are secure again.

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This already exists but a bit better(no copy paste needed). With MM there was a version that had “plotmanager” very simply GUI that just let’s you input all the parameters and then you hit start, runs the command in an embedded window. Simple as pie.

On the whole I agree with you that I would prefer them to abandon this all-in-one approach (gives me a windows feeling).
Just having a simple solid farmer would be great. Focussed on giving clear insight where your plots are at and even more importantly, warn you if something is wrong.
A separate plotting tool as described above.
And then a separate wallet app

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All this lip flapping, please tell me who twisted your arm to use this product. I’m sure you’re going to complain when they hang you with a new rope. Be glad I don’t send my boys and scoop you up and put you in a Russian jail. Now behave…

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My rant:
There should be descriptions of what all acronyms mean.

For example, what is “NFT”?
“non-fungible token” should be spelled out, along with the function of a “non-fungible token”.

Same for “OG”. I still have no idea what that stands for.

$ chia plot create – options:
The “-p” option, which is a “pool_public_key”, when farming solo.
I have no idea why I need to specify my “pool_public_key” for solo farming?

The “-a” option, which is “alt_fingerprint”.

  1. I do not know what a fingerprint is, as it pertains to creating plots.
  2. What alternate finger print would someone use? How would they know what that alternate fingerprint is? Why would they use an alternate fingerprint?

The “-e” option, which is “nobitfield”.
How would I know whether or not I would want “nobitfield”, when I have no idea what a bitfield is?

Why not have a “-guess” option, where you add it and guess its purpose?

I would also like the application to indicate which fields in the GUI, or any output from commands or in the logs, should never be shared vs what is safe to be shared. If I need to seek help, how do I know whether or not something I am sharing is safe to be shared?

In the GUI’s “Plots” screen, there is a “Plot Key” and a “Pool Key” column. Are those keys safe to share? They are “keys”. Yet no explanation of their purpose, functionality, security risk, etc. We just have a column name with cryptic data for values.

The GUI should have something to click on that explains what the “keys” and other stuff is for, and whether it is safe to share, such as if you want to upload a screen capture when seeking support.

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Its all so much easier with chia than it was learning about bitcoin back in the day, yes there were hurdles, so my interest made me learn and research.
No work , no reward, same as everything in life.

I bricked a miner messing with with setting up router connections, there was no reset switch, i learnt to short the circuitry with a paperclip to bring it back to life and didnt moan once about it…
The asic didnt even have a case lol, just 2 exposed boards with a stand at either end and a fan mounted on one end.

Google Photos

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Original Gangsta it is a generic term not related to plots/chia/nft

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Sounds like you are mad at yourself for not realizing things change over time.
Sucks to fail and have to learn something, but u likely learn more that way.

Most here have likely felt all of ur frustrations, and more, with ‘things’, but over time, in little chunks.

The GUI sucks in so many ways, most avoid it, but still, u’ve hit only some of its failings, lol!
Agreed esp. bad for newbies, the tech-averse, and anyone who can’t/won’t persevere.

Ur kinda preaching to the choir here, but we’re not in control of much except ourselves.
Hopefully you can get on with it now, and feel better for venting. :smiling_face_with_tear:

But BTW, OG plots work fine, and win rewards, I have a few. I never, ever intend to pool, so my making NFTs is meaningless, but I still do it.

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I agree with the subject at hand. There is no reason why the system should even be able to make OG plots at this time. There are faucets anyone can use to get the mojo needed to create an NFT. Starting new farmers out (when they don’t know any better) creating plots that can’t be used in official pools is idiotic. Going through the pain of teaching them how to use a faucet and setup an NFT is a lot easier then telling them they can’t use their plots in a pool after they spent a month creating them. That is a recipe for enforcing Hpool and the like.

When the new plot format was released (along with official pooling), creating OG plots should have no longer been possible, period.

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Thank you for the discussion on this.

Whether you like the Chia GUI or do not, the fact is this. To be “mainstream”, like they want(ed), you need something that home users can pick up and use. It’s supposed to be…wait for it…easy/simple. That’s the entire purpose of it. User friendly interface.

I can honestly say constructively that Chia farming is not simple in the least. The idea that anyone can simply create plots and farm on their unused storage makes it sound like simple pie.

This is one thing that does bother me about tech. People who are too smart. They can’t relate to the end user. Common sense? You can’t have that if you can’t identify it.

I understand the command line benefits and the arguments for separating plotting. But Chia is trying here to be simple. Mainstream.

These things can be fixed but as I always say. You can’t fix something until you admit there is a problem. You get a bunch of devs deciding what’s good to ship and you get the Chia GUI. There is some very illogical aspects to it and considering how many versions we are at now, it’s amazing that some of my gripes haven’t been identified.

And to clarify by no means am I some novice computer user. I know about the crypto space. Mining ETH or other coins is FAR simpler than what Chia is. Not that it has to be this way. I will also suggest that the Chia GUI and plotting should NOT require scrolling. There should be an easy way to trim that down so you can see all the settings at one time. Scrolling by default is such a crock of S.

Aside from what I’ve said here, I think it’s GREAT!

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Agreed the GUI is lacking. But with every release it is getting better. Especially the last couple major releases. I think most of the time spent up until recently was to get the core running smoothly/efficiently. It seems lately they have been adding more user level benefits. The latest farmer/harvester update is really nice. When they start doing the same thing for farm health, I think it will answer most of your concerns. When will that happen, don’t know. But I bet it is on their list.

We are all still early on this. Growing pains are to be expected.

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Fair points. I agree that being in this with the first batch of people, there will be issues and hurdles. I suppose my question is whether they see some of my observations as issues that need to be addressed or not. In theory, now I have no issues with the Chia GUI now that I know its shortcomings. But for the greater good, I’m speaking up about this. I have also been frustrated with the process of upgrading the database to v2 because the official documentation is extremely obtuse about whether the config file does or does not need editing. You can read things two different ways. There is no clear answer on the wiki pages nor is there anything definitive in various forums/posts. It’s why I say there is a level of complexity here that should and could be easily addressed. I just don’t think Chia got enough feedback to identify these shortcomings. Nobody wants to update a database, but then if that update requires editing config files? This is no joke. Make it clear and definitive. That’s my underlying point to anything I’ve mentioned here.

As for who twisted my arm to use this product. Who the F cares? Farmers/miners provide the security for the network. Which part don’t you understand? If Chia wants to be the best then fix issues and be the best. If you think as it is, it’s a perfect system that any user with “unused hard drive space” can simply pick up and play? Think again. Maybe you are touchy because you are involved with the project and or decisions on the GUI.

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It did, now it doesnt.
But every case is different and sone time the automation fails.

Sure, guides could be better, but someone would still find fault and be unhappy, this is life.

Happy farming .

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I think you identified one of the issues. When you have many version updates, the info you find online is scattered, misleading and often wrong. Thus, the importance of official Chia pages. I just went through this with the database. I’m sure most did this 6 month+ ago. There is now way for me to know for sure, whether I need to update my config file. Where is the definitive answer? There should be one. Database is slightly crucial.

Feedback doesn’t have to be considered negative. Without feedback you would never know whether something is good or bad for the end user. Not enough end users in June 2022 starting in on Chia a a problem. Maybe not a problem if price stay like this. That said, Chia should be solidifying the information so people have clarity. I think once the official guides start showing cobwebs and things get put on the back burner (like having old guides and info on the official website) then it’s an indicator on the project as a whole. Like a store. If you see a lot of dust and disheveled shelves and disorganization, it’s a tell tale sign of how well that business is doing. You can see it if you look.

Aside from that? Everything is absolutely fantastic.

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Actually, when you run the update command, it shows you bit by bit what its doing.
The last bit it does and shows you it does is updading config.yaml.

At least that was the case when i updated