HPOOL found fake plots

[chianew]

HPOOL published an announcement that, the fake Chia plots space in HPOOL is more than 500P , the largest one account is 180P, the others are under investigation.

[juppin]

Why aren’t you providing the source/link?

[mkdev]

https://hpool.com/help/bulletin

[vavi]

thats was already known

3% luck, no block from 3 weeks... I surrender, joined HPOOL with my few thousands plots

they banned ppl for faking plots and power space. dont ask me how they did it

Also Bram said it on one of the live streams, that they (hpool) were losing a lot of money cuz of that.

there’s already other post about this

Netspace Plateauing?

Statement on their website: HPOOL on recent withdrawals, accounting audit delays Recently, HPOOL cleaned the abnormal account of the mine pool. In order to remove the problem calculation in the Hpool-Chia mine pool. HPOOL selects suspected problematic accounts through data analysis and reviews them on a daily basis. The clean-up was not made public to prevent unusual account data from going offline to avoid scrutiny. During this period, we reduced the withdrawal speed (to avoid the withdrawal…

[MisterOutofTime]

dont ask me how they did it

they modified the hpool client to send a different k size then they actually have, which is difficult for hpool to figure out without official pooling(or signed binaries and pinned certificates encryption, but everything can be cracked tbh)

[codinghorror]

Is this the source of the dip in the network space?

Alex Franz

Maybe HPool killed off a lot of fake plots?

[MisterOutofTime]

wouldnt think so, it should only have affected the users netspace reported to hpool

not the netspace which chia knows about

[ChiaMiner]

HPool is creating fake articles to suck farmers more. Don’t be a fool.

[mkdev]

More stable expected time to win for small farmers #6183

The average time to win can bounce around a lot if you are a small time farmer even if your percentage of the total netspace is stable. I figure it is better to use the average daily block count instead of the last 500 blocks if on average you will win less than once per day.

More stable expected time to win for small farmers

[root87]

hello;

as you know hpool make an announce about fake plot files and others.
after that i go keybase and i start ask question about that. I was seeking an admin because i was worry about my investment. personelly i already buy tons of hard drives and nvme disks. anyway admin banned me from keybase because i bother them with questions.

you can find hpool announce here.

https://hpool.com/help/bulletin

so lets calculate some informations together. why i belive hpool you will read that.

firstly i am not an idiot, i manage chia telegram grup and i have 1900 people there. lets back to calculate.

according to explorer chia coin has only 16500 full node with ipv4. (i am pretty sure not much ipv6 nodes.) please check.
https://www.chiaexplorer.com/charts/nodesWeek

lets calculate together
we have 16500 uniq nodes.
network diff grow around 800 pb /days [some days more]

800 pb = 800.000 TB

800.000 TB / 16500 = 48.48 TB / day

so question is who plotting 48 TB per day?
how much ram do you need for plotting 48 tb / day
how much cpu do you need for plotting 48 tb / day
how much nvme do you need for plotting 48 tb /day
i can ask 10 more questions like that.

lets think about another way

as you know if you dont have internet connection you can not open chia wallet and if you run duble node in same ip adress you are going to sync problem. you can find proof here.
[i cant put 3 links in one topic because i am new user! you can find proof chia wiki.]

BUT I PASS THIS PART , I IGNORE THIS INFORMATIONS.

maybe some people plotting offline computer, after that they paste it to mining computer honestly thats possible. but how many people and how many power ?

lets calculate that.
what we know?

network grows 800 PB / day
we have 16500 online nodes ipv4 and only this computers mining chia coin.
ofcourse we have ipv6 nodes too.
some people make plot offline wallet. they are not mining.

okey.

so we can calculate like that?

16500+(16500 for offline computer)+ (%10 for ipv6) i guess its really too much for ipv6 but thats okey.
16500+16500+1650= 34.650

so what now?

800.000 TB total grow per day
34.650 total plotting computer

800.000/34650=23 TB per computer!

so question is who plotting 23 TB per day?
how much ram do you need for plotting 23 tb / day
how much cpu do you need for plotting 23 tb / day
how much nvme do you need for plotting 23 tb /day

so do you belive math? or admins? can you give me reason too please. i am waiting your commands.

if you banned me here too. i will calculate this information on youtube.

for your informations.(admins.)

[Voodoo]

you are forgetting about the (semi)professional plotting services that leverage huge server setups to produce plots, some claim to have 200 plots/hour output capacity.

Plenty of people here who have 10TB/day output with a single threadripper system or a few old servers, and they are still hobbyist compared to some of the crypto groups/companies who invest tons of money into hardware.

Also the double farming issue is only related to Hpool’s own software and the rewards paid to people who are farming with Hpool. That issue does not affect the Chia blockchain or farmers outside of Hpool.

[ryan]

I don’t really understand how the official pooling will solve this. Unless you’re continually querying pool participants with low difficulty proofs to ensure the plots they’re claiming to have are viable, what’s stopping them from:

• Setting up a SMB share with wide links enabled and a ton of symbolic links with plausible sounding names?
• Creating a modified client that lies about their plot count?
• Using fallocate to create fake files that don’t actually take any space?
• Etc?

I would like to have tried to join HPOOL with a bunch of fake plots to see what would happen, but it’s 100% illegal (fraud), so there’s no way anyone with any ethics or respect for the law can test stuff like that.

Maybe once official pools are released someone (not me) can start one that’s specifically made to test possible ways of cheating. I would probably contribute 10 real plots to something like that if it meant everyone was onboard with it being for experimentation only with no expectation of fair rewards.

At the very least, I would point 10 plots to a fake pool even if I didn’t have the time to test test theories for cheating. I noticed cheaterpool.com is available if anyone wants it. Lol.

[Dan]

@ryan

continually querying pool participants with low difficulty proofs to ensure the plots they’re claiming to have are viable

You hit the nail on the head.

[ryan]

If that’s the way it works (continual low difficulty queries) there’s still a lot of complexity. They would need to pick a threshold where they think a participants claims are statistically unlikely or impossible and then deny them rewards. Anyone who ends up being a false positive will be very, very upset.

Although, I’m guessing an easy solution to false positives would be to delay payouts for that participant until they come back within a range that’s statistically likely. Or move that participant to a lower difficulty to get a more statistically accurate idea of the viability of their plots.

It’s probably a pretty fun problem to solve.

Or, now that I though about it a bit more, it would make sense to have a variable difficultly based on a participants reported plot size.

[Dan]

I think this is why it’s not a trivial “flip a switch” problem to solve. There are a lot of little details they need to work out. I don’t work for Chia so I don’t know exactly what’s holding them up, but I’m confident that this is something they want to get done properly on the first try.

[ryan]

@Dan

There are a lot of little details they need to work out.

I think if they come up with a way to guarantee / proove participants have a certain number of viable plots they’re farming over a short period of time that portion of the tech has some value to it. I say that because of this question / opinion I posted a month ago:

Could proof of space and time work as a reputation currency?

I’m not a huge crypto fan, but tried out Chia because the “proof of space and time” portion of it really piqued my interest. I say this because it has a unique quality that I don’t think I’ve seen in tech before. The cost for a normal user to farm 1-10 Chia plots is a very small one time cost for plotting plus $0 of ongoing costs if it’s done alongside normal computing activity. As long as you’re not leaving your computer on overnight to farm, the incremental cost is basically $0. The cost t…

[Voodoo]

I don’t know the details of the pooling protocol. But I seem to remember that it will be using smart contracts to sign plots over to a pool (needing a mojo to do this) Also some pool websites are saying this, so should be the case.

So I would assume that the smart contract will be used to verify plots, and also make sure that they cannot be signed to the pool or another pool twice.

I’m sure tons of a-holes will try to cheat the system and some might succeed at some point. But I do have some faith in the Chia team that they are able to mitigate the bulk of these issues in their protocol.

[rrr]

@root87

k question about that. I was seeking an admin because i was worry about my investment. personelly i already buy tons of hard drives and nvme disks. anyway admin banned me from keybase because i bother them with questions.

you can find hpool announce here.

They banned lot of fake, but my income is still the same hahahahahaha so if banned fake plots were not genereted tokens and only took rewards, that mean after ban we shoulde receive more.

[chiahodler]

But the network is growing - the winnings are still the same from 2 days and they didnt declined every day like they use to be.

[dcrypt]

Old news. Fake plots on scam hpool has been known for a good while now but people don’t want to accept the truth and continue to mine there for less profits. If people want to be ignorant and willingly hand their rewards over to scammers there’s not much else we can do other than make sure they understand that’s what they are doing.