Maxiopool Shut Down

I’d like to take a moment to share Chia Networks position on the subject, since the impression is being given that we are ignoring a “flaw” in the blockchain or are otherwise dis-interested in resolving this issue, which is not the case at all.

Our system is designed a specific way with certain decisions made, and while a pool operator can choose to use it in ways it was not intended for their benefit (like, say running FPPS/PPS pool), then they need to own that choice and protect themselves accordingly. (Though we will, and have, help you find those solutions if you want advice.)

Early in pool protocol design, the “dead weight” risk was openly discussed between Chia and pool operators, and we understood this to be a potential risk (in fact Alex over at FlexPool says the same issue can happen on Etc pools if the pool doesn’t account for it). Unfortunately we had to make a hard choice during pooling development between either giving Pools centralized control, or giving Farmers the benefit of the doubt and giving them full decentralization.

Ultimately we decided to stick with our vision of true decentralization, and included 0.25 XCH + fees reward to farmers as a counter to this potential attack in edge cases. In the end of the day, this was a hard decision to make, as every blockchain protocol needs to make a fundamental decision on these kinds of hard choices from time to time. Our hope was that most pools wouldn’t be inherently susceptible to this, and ones who were (like for example an FPPS pool), would be able to put the time and resources into developing their own additional controls as part of the their pooling.

We understand and empathize with Maxiopool’s frustration, but this is not a Chia bug or exploit. It is a fundamental piece of the blockchain code working as it was designed and intended, after a deliberate series of choices were made, in a decision to help ensure full decentralization. Thus, we recommend no pool operator provide PPS payout, unless they are also willing to take on it’s in inherent risks or add monitoring and controls around it of their own design. (Which we tried to give Maxipool advice on… now suffice to say, it IS possible that the advice we give wasn’t sufficient, or that the ideas we cooked up in Keybase weren’t thorough enough to protect a PPS pool from this, but to be fair, the same goes for other cryptos on other chains, it’s an inherent flaw in the PPS model and one of the risks that comes with the reward.)

(Putting it another way: When designing pooling support for Chia, do we completely change the fundamentals of the block change decentralization vision we have, so as to ensure that a small percentage of edge cases don’t have to do any extra work when building pools… Or do we hold to our values for 95% of the pooling world, and educate the remaining 5% on what they can do on their side to solve the problem if they decide to operate outside the box? Chia can’t fix this problem on our side, without fundamentally changing the vision of decentralization… However pool operators can attempt fix it much more easily, if they are the edge case that makes them susceptible to it, by adding simple detection methods for NTFs that have significant deviations from the norm, or other detectable scenarios. Or, perhaps, if it’s too hard to detect… that could be too… then they can move away from PPS to a more common method. The point is, this is a risk on MANY blockchains of a variety of cryptos, and Chia is not unique in this issue… it’s a risk PPS based pools opt into.)

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For months it’s been clear to anyone paying attention that a significant percentage of farms have configuration/performance issues; a ticking time bomb for PPS pools. Maxiopool’s business model was high risk. The gamble didn’t pay off. The end.

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This issue exists in most PoW cryptos including ETH. Its just much harder to do on ETH. Generally this would never be done deliberately because its pretty expensive and to do it you’d need to increase the pool’s size by 10%+ which would also increase the attractiveness of the pool to others. Plus who would kill a pool that is less than 0.1% of the network/competition. And when they get big enough to be competition its then too expensive to do.

Personally I really like you guys I’m just doubtful this was due to a deliberate exploiter from another pool attacking (and honestly you’d think they’d attack us or space if so). There’s at least 3-4 ways to crash or exploit the payment systems of other pools that are pretty obvious so you’d think they’d have gone for one of the easy/cheap ones instead. That being said you guys have always struck me as very competent so I’m giving you some grains of salt.

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OK, so the TL;DR is as follows:

  1. Pool operators can choose from a number of different payout methods to offer
  2. 95% of operators choose A, B, C and/or D.
  3. 5% choose E, and it has certain risks involved
  4. Maxiopool chose E, but now says “chia pooling” is problematic, when it is in fact just 1 of many payout methods that the pool operator can freely choose from that is problematic.

Got it.

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I think they(maxiopool) are serious. And the pool OP does have this bug.

We can’t ignore it just because the attack cost is high.
It doesn’t have much to do with whether they choose FFS.
Even other payment methods are not immune…

This bug puts small pools at great risk.

More and more small pools will be killed and The surviving pool will become more and more concentrated

Only large pools can live to the end, and new pools are vulnerable to attack.

In principle, this problem is not conducive to the CHIA pool ecological development

For example, attacking a 100p pool with 20p plots makes its revenue about ~20% lower than that of most pools. In more than a week, many people will leave it. It’s too easy to switch to a new pool.

Attack costs is ~20% of revenue of the 20p plots for few days or weeks.

so the attacking cost is not as high as you think.

Sorry to see Maxio go. I was a huge fan of their payment model and the idea of no fees for the smallest 25% of the pool. There has to be someone willing to give small farmers a place in chia. I went back to maxio for a reason after trying larger pools. Time to find a new chia home.

How do you even leave the house? You know this is crypto right?

Too easy. I’ve got 20PiB in my back pocket

If the income of farmers in a pool is very low, they will consider switching to a higher income pool, which is normal.

This is the game between pool OPs, not the farmers.

when the game is over, there is NOT so much choices for famers.

Guys, I’m on chia official GUI, select this maxiopool.
Since it shutting down, can I change pool or need to replot everything?
Or I can switch all my NFT plot to solo pool?

There is a button in the pools tab of the chia app

It’s labeled “change pool”

I will leave it to your imagination what this button does.

It takes 30 minutes for the change to take effect, you can also choose solo

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IMO pool centralisation is an inevitability, look at ETH for e.g. 3 pools have more than half of the network hashrate. Even without any exploit, that will just happen eventually, a bigger pool can offer a relatively small incentive (say permanent 0.5% lower fees) that smaller pools cannot sustainably compete with, so that over time there will only be a few big pools remaining.

The difference between ETH and XCH though is that in an ETH pool the pool creates the blocks and the miner is just a dumb signatory, in XCH the farmers are the arbiters of what is included in a block, so even in a landscape with just a few big pools, the network cannot be said to be centralised in the same way as it could in ETH.

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Yes, no matter whether there is this bug or not, the pool will be concentrated. The biggest risk of pool OP will be attacked by various forms of attacks.
There is little investment in its own software and hardware.
For professional pool OP, most of the cost should be on security

It’s just that this bug will speed up the elimination of some small pools

come over to OpenChia.io its a small pool that’s open source not been going long, better than self pooling. worth a go while you decide.

Newbie question: I thought that the pool from Chia is quite different from the ETH. If the farmers in the Pool are the one “Signing/Winning” the block, Does it mean that even if the farmer is inside the pool is still descentralized?

Additionaly, its more probably that a solo farmer can win a block instead of eth or btc due to the PoST.

Are my assumption correct?

Thanks

thanks for the reply.

but i click change pool,
type in the new pool address,
clicked “Change”, the circle keep rotating… almost 15 mins already.

do i need to stop all my plot in GUI to do the change?
or all my plotting machines that synced to this account, to stop plotting or closed the GUI in order to perform this pool change?

I use windows gui and I cannot change a pool while plotting. If I do, it hangs and plotting stops. So I wait to finish plotting then change the pool. Also if I click key on the left side menu chia gui hangs for ever and I have to close the window and restart the pc.

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I switched to findchia and am getting payouts, decent ones too.

I switched to spacepool. Bigger the better :slight_smile: We have a saying: If you are going to drown, drown in a big sea!

Well I am supporting the only British pool. However, if they fail, I will sail my plots to another island.