We need to all work together to get farmers off Old OG Plot Pools if we want Chia to be success and for us to make a profit

Oh hell yeah, community engagement has been piss poor overall. If I was Bram and co, I’d get on youtube and do a community Q and A right now. It’s obvious there’s farmers that are thinking about pulling the plug, some already have, and without farmers, XCH is worth less than dogshit.

And @dandyandy85, I agree the devs didn’t think some things through, they should have anticipated the rise of rogue pools.

When chia prices go up, distribution will adapt.

And don’t forget a portion of Chia farmers are holding onto OG plots because they also farm forks of chia, it is scattered currently with flax netspace which about 2.39 EiB is the biggest. Some are multi-farming forks. Chia forks community seems reluctant to replot to nft plots because they will only receive 1/8 rewards, as of now, when compared to full rewards farming with OG plots.
I believe the take-ups to nft replots will accelerate much faster, if only chia forks devs can ‘restore’ the missing 7/8 rewards.
Info here: Chia Forks (xchforks.com)

Don’t see a truth in the claim if you look at the math. Per protocol, beyond a 0.25 farmer fee in OP, there is nothing else differentiating the rewards. In fact, average farmer won’t have much a chance to touch that 0.25 for years.

Besides scammers which every OG pool has. On HPool I saw estimates of up to 25% in losses. Well there’s also pool fee as most OP pools are 0% fee currently.

There is no difference in the odd of reward to you and me, assuming we are both farming, whether the rest of the world going OG or OP. The odd remains the same.

Pool operators want to attract OG population to their pool. That’s the only thing I can see the difference.

My 2-cents, improve the Pool service, go YouTube to educate the public (doing a PR), or airdrop some XCH to lure the farmers. That’s what a pool operator should do.

Please don’t fool farmer about how much OP could be better than OG blah, blah in reward,… there is absolutely no truth in that claim.

Hpool website

OG pool reward: 0.21 XCH/PiB
OP pool reward: 0.26 XCH/PiB + 0.25 XCH farmer reward per won block

I rest my case…

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I know that HPool attracted a lot of fake plots, at least in the early months. I’m not sure how many OG pools out there besides HPool. Farmer should use their own do diligent to decide.

IMOH, 0% fee is a bad way to lure farmers. People are not stupid. 0.25 goes to winning farmer directly, the rest 1.75 distributed to the pool. What to feed the pool’s admin team then? They don’t have wife/husband, kids, and they don’t eat or drink?

Two points:

  1. OG pool doesn’t mean HPool. Farmers can pool their OG together. The point is, the odd of reward should be the same, OG or OP.
  2. HPool offers 30 XCH airdrop daily. I didn’t say that before because no intention to promote HPool . Now you said that … well.

We have a successful ETH pool that pays the bills.

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I see your point, but still doesn’t really make the case.

Hpool is 80% or so of OG pool.
Airdrops are temporary, and only apply to the new pool, many Op pools do airdrops and promotions to.
Other OG pools are foxy and?

Farmers can pool together yes, requiring trust. That’s the whole good thing of the new protocol. requires much less trust and easy to switch if you want to or feel the need to.

Fact is OG pools are much easier to cheat, and this cuts in to honest farmers winnings.

I have been on Hpool for about 2 months now, really appreciate what they did and the fact that they stayed with it in spite of all the shit they got for it. But now that something much more workable and stable in the long run has come out, I’m replotting and moving on.

Another not to underestimate benefit of the NFT pools is that this means pools do not control the farming power, and therefor keeps the network decentralized, contrary to BTC for example which had problems with pools getting too large

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Great to see our OG pool pays out the same as hpools OP pool :joy:

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I like your foxy-pool chia OG and will stay there with my OG plots as long as your service is the best OG pool on earth.
Keep up your good work. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Perhaps we are touching a deeper issue here, the safety of Chia network. Step back, I should say it’s good and fair for pool operators to promote and encourage OP.

However, the reason I’m withholding my cheer to OP pools is a concern of pool protocol against fake plots. I have questioned the possibility of fake plots, especially during widely reported incidents on HPool. Based on the document of Singleton (OP contract NFT), it doesn’t seem the newly enhanced protocol has sufficiently addressed the issue. It still might not be able to resist fake plot attacks. In that sense, OG pools might end up suffering from the same experience of early HPool by a large scale fake plot attack.

Use a reusable Raffle ticket for analogy. How do you know the Raffle ticket I gave you to the party was a real one? Without an authority behind the distribution, you have to verify the “ticket” by the ticket itself. That’s a really hard problem because no one could be trusted in the process. The core issue is in the “challenge” to the “winning puzzle”. If I understand the protocol correctly, by design, there is no way for you to come up with the ultimate “challenge” in advance to validate the “puzzle” on the plot. You can use a low difficulty challenge to partially verified the plot. But you don’t know if the plot would truly work for you until it won an XCH.

Well, the issue of fake plot goes far beyond the thread of current discussion. I may open a new topic sometime.

People will either

  • Stay with OG, because they are earning, despite the cheaters, which is factored in to earnings and because they are fully plotted.
  • Are now plotting OP plots to their remaining or newly acquired space (like I am, I have 500 OG plots and now 250 OP plots with another 300-400 to go) without having decided what to do with their OG plots until this process is complete.
  • Are intending to plot OP and/or replace all the OG plots for certain.

I cannot see anyone deciding that plotting OG is the right move, if they are starting today, so OP will gradually replace OG, even if it is to self-pool now but reserve the ability to move to a pool later. There is reason for some people to not replot their OG plots they already have (time, energy use, heat) but no reason for anyone to now plot OG plots, which are inherently less versatile and take the exact same resources to plot.

Its a bit like, if an announcement was made that K33 would become the minimum plot size from 3 months onwards, and that older K32 plots with dates before that would still be valid for farming then new plots would all be K33 from the announcement onwards.

I can see gradual drift away from Hpool OG, I can see nothing encouraging people to head there as their first port of call.

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they can always offer incentive for OG people to replot by giving out XCH from their 21 million stash, since it will be used to better benefit the network matching that fund intended purpose

I was just going to say this and I saw your comment as it was the last one in the list. If the new NFT driven pools are what is best for Chia the devs could make a change so that if a block is found by NFT plots it gets an extra .5 to 1 XCH for the next 100,000 blocks or something like that.

That would require a hard fork which would require 51% of farmers to agree (and most farmers aka over 90% are on OG plots right now)

PS: They can’t give out the premine as its locked in and can only be released in very specific use cases. Plus giving it out would just crash the value of XCH such that what we mine $ wise would be equal. Given that their giving out millions daily issuance wise their pretty generous, they are giving out more than XMR/ETC despite being a new crypto.

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nah, once they actually get smart contracts working they do do it all through that.

It’s their wallet, they can send it to who they please.

You got some coded embedded into the blockchain I can look at that enforces these “use cases”? I’m asking because I wasn’t aware of this. I thought that they said they would only use it for certain things, but that isn’t locked by code.

I’m not sure it works that way, given the total supply doesn’t change.

They are not giving out anything daily. We are earning by securing. They are losing nothing. It is costing them nothing. Without us, they are nothing, or no better than XRP or maybe BSC.

I’m not sure this matters either. I’m talking about an incentive to move plot types.

I’m sure they could not care less if people use NFT plots or OG plots.

I’m sure they could not care less if people use NFT plots or OG plots.

Yeah agree, not sure it makes much difference to Chia developers or the protocol - that is, the protocol should still work and the netspace should be secure even if people are using a different closed source client, otherwise the protocol is broken.