CHIA GUI 2.0.0: Be careful, isn't reading compressed Gigahorse Plots (at least not my C8 ones)

Chia Farming & Harvesting
21

There is NO fee when using Bladebit, as its released open-source unlike gigahorse.

This means when using Bladebit plots, every official update Chia releases will work immediately, think security updates or other features and enhancements to the blockchain… but with gigahorse, you will have to wait for updates and hope they come in a timely fashion because it uses a proprietary closed-source binary so you can’t bypass paying for gigahorse plots.

So this isn’t just a “today” issue, but it will be an ongoing issue for those who use gigahorse plots, every release potentially having breaking changes that will no longer work with the proprietary closed-source paid-to-use gigahorse farmer, this is why many are choosing to replot, so they don’t miss critical updates or find out things broke and have to wait before they can move forward with the network.

2 Likes
22

Yes, on principle you are right, but there is as well other point of view, considering something like, let me say “the free market concept” (if applicable).

Madmax/Gigahorse must be updated and COMPETITIVE in order to maintain or even grow their users quantity.

What does it mean? In my opinion, yes, the updates must be available when is required, but as well there should be other “points of attractiveness” for keeping a lot of users like me with our GH plots (that happened already when a lot of us, like me, decided to replot compressed files with Gigahorse, even considering the fee to be payed and the technical issues that could affect us for not using the official protocol).

@madMAx43v3r Max: I know this could be a sensitive topic for you to express your ideas here at this forum, but maybe when you wish, you could invite the GH community to be “close” to your proposals/policies, and confirm that we took a good decision, avoiding considering to move our plots to other developments.

23

Absolutely there are different points of view, thats why some compromised using one over the other, but that doesn’t erase what I said that it will be ongoing and not just a “today” thing. Obviously there is a financial incentive to provide updates quickly for the closed-source choice but that doesn’t erase anything I said or prevent issues, so what I am doing is pointing out for those who enjoy the “set and forget” lifestyle it may involve more time and effort on their part, or waiting extra time for security updates and utility fixes… thats a vulnerability to factor in for your node or your transactions.

if we dive deeper into discussions there are additional concerns long-term, every rung on the ladder introduces a new step and risk, the whole point behind open-source is to reduce the number of steps and risks with software, because no matter how good the intention of the person, no matter how high their morals are, no matter how financially incentivized they are to not making mistakes, vulnerabilities will be taken advantage of when you consolidate actions down to fewer eyes and single points of attack as a result of being closed-source, its just a sad reality the internet and crypto has shown.

So if you want “big picture” stuff, I think the conversation should happen for more than what most people look at quickly, the small percentage of today becomes a much bigger discussion down the road. For me, I don’t think the difference is going to be worth the long-term risk and cost anymore, the gap is close enough its worth switching to Bladebit, some will decide they are already locked in and don’t want to change, thats the dream of every proprietary system right, that changing is significant enough its not worth doing so they can continue profiting off you even if they have bumps in the road, you can’t flip the switch overnight you have to suffer through the transition.

All this is why I say its not just a “today” issue, but its going to be an ongoing discussion release after release after release after release.

For those just dumping coins today immediately its an easier choice, but for those holding coins looking to profit from future growth, they may want to factor the cost of lost decentralization into the discussion, if Chia is the most decentralized and uncompromising network that becomes the backbone of the future, their holdings will reward them more, but the alternative is you may get less because compromises were made today that cost you in the long run, I see few think this over because so many focus on the pennies they are picking up today at the potential cost of dollars lost tomorrow.

24

I will continue to update GH as needed, there’s no drama to be had here.

You can always run the official GUI on another machine if you need some critical wallet update.

The only reasons for an immediate GH update would be a chain halt or security flaws that allow remote access / stealing of funds / etc.

Things are not complicated, if there’s a soft or hard fork coming up GH has to be updated. Otherwise it’s a nice to have and I listen to Discord / Forum feedback to see if there is demand.

5 Likes
25

To be accurate, it was $70k with an extra $30k later with conditions, plus stock options that were like a lottery ticket. In any case, it was far from enticing. We wasted $10k just to get a lawyer to analyze the contract they gave us.

We (me and friends) tried to apply for the grant system also (initially anonymously), but there was no interest.

Partly yes, NoSSD still has no GPU plotting & farming support.

It appears they applied the 30% to 101 GiB: 101 * 1.3 = 131

Which is misleading, effective plot size stays the same with compression. If it did increase it would mean breaking the Proof Of Space itself.

9 Likes
26

Stock-options still have value, it’s the main way early employees make a lot of money in tech startups. You of all people should know that, given that you work in software engineering.

Also $70k maybe isn’t what you feel is a just reward to your contribution. But it’s still a lot of money for many people. Reading this honestly makes me feel like you’re a bit out of touch.

You didn’t waste $10k, you invested $10k to evaluate the contract. I’m really disappointed in reading you say that.

27

Working on a salary is different than working for yourself. With a salary you can sit back and relax, the money keeps coming in for years on end.

However if you ever tried to make a living without an employer, you will notice that it’s extremely difficult to make it. Opportunities only come every 5 - 10 years, and you will waste many years of work for nothing. So when an opportunity presents itself it needs to pay for all those years you got nothing.

Now, take $70k and spread it over 5 - 10 years, is it still a lot?
If you’re over $200k in the hole due to development costs, is $70k still a lot?

Stock options that are based on last bull run valuations with successful IPO already priced in?

5 Likes
28

You don’t say anything about the quantity of stock options nor their price. It’s usually the bigger part of compensation. Of course SEs get vested and also get screwed. That’s the risk and explains the high variance.

I’m not going to argue with you about how much your work is worth. I’m just disappointed to read your messages as if the advice of a lawyer was worth $0, or as if contract shouldn’t be negotiated hard, or as if development costs should always be reimbursed.

I’ve never worked for anyone else but myself, so I know exactly what you’re talking about. There’s no pay guarantee and that’s why it pays a lot more when it does. Of course it’s harder to make it when blaming others for your own shortcomings.

29

We’ve negotiated for months, countless meetings. The final contract we got was … something else, our OG corporate lawyer friend asked us to stop wasting his time.

So, you let yourself get screwed and sell yourself short all the time? Sell products for less than it cost you to make?

I assume you know what an NDA is?

We did waste it, as well as the countless hours of meetings and discussions. They get paid for that, we don’t. The $70k would basically cover the cost of making a deal: legal fees, time spent negotiating, preparing documents / excel sheets / business case, etc etc.

Yes, and I also know that those options are reserved for friends and family of the founders and investors.

2 Likes
30

Of course I know what an NDA is, my point being you stood to make a lot more than $100k.

Of course I don’t sell my services for less than it cost, my point being that you can’t always make a profit when you take risks (it’s a necessary condition but not sufficient).

And of course time spent in making a deal that doesn’t close can’t be had back, the point being that it’s just the cost of doing business.

Let’s just say that your reaction/replies make me very wary of trusting you, and I wouldn’t run your code on my machines anymore. Because at some point, you might want to make me pay for your costs. I can’t be doing that, I already have my own business costs.

I respect your SE work and I’m sure you’re a great problem solver. But you seem very bitter about a deal you didn’t make, and to be holding others responsible for the expenses incurred. It doesn’t reflect well on your character.

If you made a great deal, you wouldn’t say that about the people who helped you make it happen. Pretty much sums up my point.

31

Since this topic has come back up once more…

We’ve always said that out of respect for Max we weren’t going to speak to the details of the deal unless he wanted to. Since he detailed some of the breakdowns of the cash dollar amounts above, then I figure it’s only prudent if we fill in the rest of the picture for you guys.

I’m still not going to break down exact amounts, but I will say that when you factor in the cash offered, plus all of the stock options that we calculated at the current Fair Market Value of Chia stock at the time the offer was made, the total offer is a number written with 7 figures.

Max is not wrong to imply that those stock options were doing the heavy lifting of the compensation. We have a very strong belief in the future success of Chia Network, Inc and wanted them to share in that success from their contributions.

As to OPs initial concern, as others in the thread have stated Chia 2.0 does not officially support Gigahorse plots natively, you’ll need to wait for the next update from Max of his variant of our software to get all the 2.0 features. (As outlined in our FAQ, we would gladly have Gigahorse supported natively in the client just like his initial plotter, except we can’t integrate close source software due to a handful of policy reasons.)

4 Likes
32

It is nice to see your input here even if adversarial
It seems like sad story for both parties

33

It’s not sad, we still have gigahorse, just closed source (and Max probably earns a ton from that), and Chia put their ressources towards developing bladebit (so we will have feature parity for “free”)

2 Likes
34

@Jacek You were saying?

Maybe now you will stop spouting the silly nonsense you’ve been saying for months that Chia Network offered him less than 10k. That never did sound right to me. I have a LOT of complaints about Chia Network but that always did sound pretty silly on it’s face every time you brought it up.

7 Likes
35

Yes, clearly that was not true what I wrote there, and I really am sorry for that.

Not to try to minimize that, I misread that post:

where Max in another thread stated that it was $10k or less. Those posts were after those negotiations around GH collapsed, so I wrongly assumed it applied to them. However, re-reading it, it clearly was about the original MM plotter.

With what @sargonas wrote above, the offer they gave him was fair and worth exploring further (from my point of view).

Again, I am really sorry for that.

2 Likes
36

Stock options were never something we would agree on, until the final contract we were talking about actual Stock, not options.

The value of stock options purely depends on further price increase in the future, just like buying BTC. Any value attributed to them at the time of issuance is purely speculative.

How stock options would ever be a way to acquire IP is beyond me. Stock yes, options no.
You’re getting something that has guaranteed value, it should be compensated with something that has guaranteed value at the time of transaction.

The people I’m working with already made a 1M bet on a Chia farm, which turned out to be a 900k loss so far (hodled all the XCH). To double down on stock options would have been unwise, even if we had the luxury to do so.

Not to mention that we negotiated for months on the amount of cash and stock (not options), signed a term sheet which did not contain the word options, only to get a contract with half the stock and the stock being options.
That was a funny christmas present. Our corporate lawyer friend was laughing at us lol.

If someone does that, who says you’re getting anything after you hand over the code? They have full time lawyers we don’t. They even complained why we’re not giving them the code to inspect before signing even the term sheet.

NoSSD made the right choice, release first, negotiate later. If that goes nowhere you lost nothing. We didn’t want to go that route initially because we were naive.

I’ve been told it’s the same thing, so let me give you 2 examples:
Example A: I give you X amount of BTC.
Example B: I sign a con-tract agreeing to give you X amount of BTC after you give me $40k for every BTC at any point in the future. The current price of BTC is $27k, but I expect it to hit 80k in the future, hence I will claim this contract is worth X*40k.

Is it the same? That’s how quickly 7 figures can evaporate once you look closer at them.

4 Likes
37

Can someone explain, why this whole discussion is even coming up again? If it’s closed source it’s kind of obvious that it won’t be integrated or?

38

Ok after reading myself through the thread I would like to state: please consider closing this topic regarding this unsuccessful agreement. There wasn’t enough overlap and that’s it. Personally I agree and feel max but I don’t see anything bad in chias behaviour also. It’s a freaking company and we know how companies act and need to act often. Max is right the deal wasn’t worth it probably BUT it wasn’t worth more for chia either. World is full of these moments and it’s a waste to treat them with emotions.

1 Like
39

It’s their choice to speculate with their profits. Miners produce coins and sell them in high volume but for a thin profit margin. It’s an industrial activity at scale, you use production to make a profit and pay your bills. If you decide to keep your XCH for a speculative gain as a miner, you should have let others do the mining and you just buy XCH directly, or in other words, you are business-dumb and a crypto wannabee.

Now you know. And the good thing is that you probably didn’t lose much in the end by refusing this deal: you beat CNI to market, and you have the dominant market share with GH.

It’s clearly not the same. The NPV for options can be higher but it’s only leveraged by an aggressively low price (that will almost “guarantee” profits). If the offer was bad, so be it. And if you’ve already made more with GH as standalone than what you’d have made with CNI, good for you!

I’d still wager that the CNI stock will perform well on the stock market. At this point and seeing how CNI is acting very aggressively as a company, I’d prefer owning CNI stock than XCH. I believe they’ll do everything in their power to take advantage of their dominance on PoST, even if that includes sacrificing farmers (the dumb farmers will be the first to pay).

40

Did you RTFM to understand the difference between Chia and GH?

1 Like