Petition to Introduce a Reward/Penalty System

To everyone,

This is important. Please get involved if you agree with everything stated below. Share and cast your vote!

The Network space has been growing at an alarming rate and this is mainly because there are a handful of data centers with EiB of data and major users with hundreds of PiB. Very soon even 100TB of storage space will have an estimated time to win of over 1 year!

Chia is becoming more centralized each day and this has to STOP!

I believe the only way to stop this is by implementing a penalty system for the users with PiB of data, their plots to pass the filers should decrease as they grow their network (example: from 1 in 512 from 1PiB to 1 in 10240 for 1EiB)
AND/OR
Implement a reward system to benefit users with limited amount of storage space who haven’t won anything in a certain period of time after which the number of plots to pass the filter will gradually increase until a proof is found. (example: from 1 in 512 current to 1 in 50 after 1 week of no wins)

Without this system, even with the pools implemented, I believe most of us regular people won’t have a chance. This is not about helping people win more with less, it’s about keeping Chia Network a decentralized one! Right now Chia is becoming more and more centralized and it is moving away from what it was meant to be, our Network!

Share this with everyone and make Bram Cohen and the Chia core developers listen to us!!

Make Chia fair to everyone! Decentralize Chia!

4 Likes

Couldn’t work - if I had a 1PB farm, I could just split it into 10 100TB farms, you’d never be able to tell that I owned all of them if I used different keys.

Also, I’m not sure the purpose of chia is to make money for farmers, unfortunately. If we can make money from it, good for us, but we’re being paid to provide a service, and someone who’s put more into it is going to get more from it.

6 Likes

This would be useless. All it would do is add another step to the big players. Just setup a different set of keys for each farm and keep the farms small. But have a bunch of farms. This would not stop big players.

2 Likes

If there is a will, there is a way!

Variations of your idea get proposed nearly daily. There are several problems with it:

  1. There is nothing stopping farmers from creating several private keys, so penalizing the big guys will do nothing.

  2. Ditto on helping the small guys. If my plots have an increased chance of winning over time, I’ll just create a new private key for each plot.

  3. The consensus is already baked in. The only way to implement your changes would be with a hard fork, which the company won’t do. You’re free to attempt a hard fork on your own, though.

  4. Please prove your thesis that Chia is getting more centralized over time, because that’s not what I’m seeing.

  5. You misunderstand Chia’s upcoming pool protocol. It will not lead to more centralization.

3 Likes

I am sure checks can be implemented by IP for example similar to how browsers work Netflix, Amazon, Disney, etc. If Chia Blockchain won’t work with a VPN, it will be hard to cheat. It can be done.

If there is a will, there’s a way!

We have to put pressure on Bram Cohen and the other developers. They have to take action. Chia Network is no longer decentralized

Again, this has already been proposed and defeated multiple times. The protocol is already as fair as it possibly can be. Your win rate is directly proportional to the amount of space you have dedicated to Chia. IP checks are easy to get around for the big guys, and a huge annoyance/hindrance for the small guys. It would not help anything.

3 Likes

Your proposed IP check penalises everyone on carrier-grade NAT (who would almost certainly be smaller farmers). A big farmer can just buy additional static IPs, and a datacenter will have whole blocks of IPs.

I’m still not sure why it’s unfair that people who have put more money into this get more money back.

3 Likes

People? People don’t have hundreds of PiB of hard drive space… what are you talking about? As I said, there is always a way if they want to make it fair for everyone. Right now it is not fair, not for the regular people.
Maybe you represent a large enterprise and you want regular people to fight each other because united we are a lot stronger. Or maybe you’re just a naysayer.

Whatever it is, this topic is clearly not for you.

Yes, people who own datacenters could have 100s of PBs of drive space.

No I don’t represent an enterprise, but if I did, I’d still be a person, and if my enterprise had invested way more than you had I’d expect way more back.

If you truly believe that ‘united we are stronger’, why not set up an informal pool yourself with people you trust? Don’t need to wait for a pooling protocol, just buy disks together, have a contract between each other that makes it clear who owns what, and prove that ‘united you are stronger’.

Expecting everyone to do what you want isn’t fair - I don’t particularly like that the netspace is bigger than I would have liked it to be either, but I don’t think it’s ‘unfair’.

1 Like

Please at least provide a response to my points 3. and 4. because while your first message was well-written, you’re starting to sound like a troll.

  1. Chia cannot change the protocol without a hard fork, and a huge part of their ethos is “no hard forks”.

  2. Where is your evidence that Chia is getting more centralized over time?

Yes! This can easily be done, and you don’t have to write any code. Simply share your private key with people you trust and everyone plots to the same key. Then distribute the rewards in a way you all can agree with.

Certainly Dan,

3.Even if they said that they don’t want to do a hard fork, with enough pressure, I think they will eventually reconsider. I honestly think we can make them change their minds if we’re united.

4.Chia is becoming more centralized because of hpool for example. That is a centralized node, is it not? Right now it is covering the majority of space. It is growing every day. In addition, more people are turned away from joining the Network because of the decrease chance of winning.

Being on your own to support the Network makes no sense! This is why a reward/penalty system would help those people.

I am honestly surprised to see how you immediately dismissed my call for action. It is unexpected and a bit sad to see to be honest. Do you really think you’re powerless?
Do you really think that everything that Bram Cohen says remains? No, he has to listen to us and his investors. If a hard fork will be necessary, it will happen!

They might not like it but it will happen.

Chia just isn’t for you my friend. Nothing of what you are proposing has anything to do with improving anything other than supposedly getting you more XCH. As with every other crypto, you’re reward is based on your percentage of total hashrate (netspace in the case of Chia).

Stop the FUD.

4 Likes

Fair enough, I’ll stop pushing back on this. Good luck!

Yes and no. HPool (as far as I understand) uses your node as a harvester. It’s unclear if they’d have the capability to attack the network. Your complaint about centralization was regarding people who own huge data centers, not small players who join a pool. So why not just join HPool?

I think long-term, HPool with either adopt the official pooling protocol or lose its customers, or a little of both. Their fees are extremely high, and they’re getting ripped off by farmers who pretend they have more space than they really do.

This is only because, as I have already stated, many others have proposed similar ideas. This has already been discussed ad nauseum.

Chia is open source, so a hard fork is entirely possible. I already said I’d stop pushing back, so I’ll stick to it here.

2 Likes

Very passive aggressive. What did I do to offend you? I actually like the Chia Network and I want to see it succeed. Do you think I need the XCH? You don’t know anything about me of my finances.
As I said, I want this Network to be fair to the regular people like me and many others like me. With a small chia farm. I want this to be fun and pleasant for many years to come. Is that wrong?
I do not want to “live” in the shadow of large data centers. Wasting my resources for pretty much nothing. What is the point of this Network if it’s not meant for us to enjoy??

Right now I don’t think Chia is going towards what it was meant to be but maybe I am wrong and then people don’t have to listen to me. We’ll see :slight_smile:

Based on the video’s that I watched Bram never wanted “little” people in the network. The idle space that is talked about was always idle data center type space. Nothing about this coin was designed for a person with a couple TB’s of space to farm with. Some of the marketing may have purposely obfuscated what they meant by idle free space but Chia wants data center types for reliability and to have a huge network without paying for it. Laptops running 24/7 with 3 plots on them was never what the system was supposed to be. It goes against the coin being green or sustainable.

2 Likes

Show me where in the “green paper” or any other official documentation where it says “fun” is the purpose of the network. I’ll wait.

What nontechguy said 1000%!

Thanks for your input Dan. I personally haven’t read anything written here. Everything I said, I meant it. I believe in it and that’s how it is.
People, including you, can decide if the Chia Network can be improved further or not. Maybe this is the best it can be. But if that is the case, that is very sad.

I only bring constructive criticism. I like Chia Network and I want to see it better in a year from today. But this can only happen if we do something about it. It’s up to us.

I hope it makes sense, :slight_smile: