Point 1-5 are great. Yes the whole point is moot because it’s simply not possible. The fairest system is equal contribution, equal benefits. Creating some kind of welfare system for “small famers” just ain’t gonna work.
But point 6…
That’s simplifying things to were it’s 100% wrong. Big farmers controlling 30% of the network is the very definition of centralization (if they where to magically appear). Two of those and suddenly everyone else is out of the game.
ChiaExplorer:
Decentralisation of the network is measured by counting unique pool public keys. Higher is better.
Again, name calling… it’s a shame to be honest because I’d actually listen to what you have to say but all I heard, no offence, “here we are troll bla bla bla”
And just so you know, having an opinion and believing in it doesn’t make anyone a troll.
From the way you express yourself and yes point 6, as pointed by Voodoo, you couldn’t be further from the truth. Right now we are heading towards centralization and if you can’t see it, then you must be blind.
Yes! Finally someone that understands the issue. Centralization is the problem and the best I could come up as a solution is a reward system for the small farmers, to keep it at least somewhat profitable.
I never suggested that a small farmer should earn as much as a data center!! It will never happen BUT the small farmer still has to pay electricity costs and maintain his farm. If he can’t even pay for those, he will close the farm and move to something else. If enough people do that, the corporations will take over and there you go - centralization.
It won’t happen this year or maybe three years from now but if things stay the same it will happen… can’t you see that?
If the total network space will get to 1ZiB in 3 years from now, no one with 100TB or maybe even 1PiB will remain profitable at today’s prices unless Chia coin will be $10k or more. Does it make sense?
So, what can be done?? Anyone got a better solution than mine? If not a reward/penalty system, then what can be done?
Just to be clear, I am not presently concerned with centralization issues for Chia as far as Farming/Nodes go.
One of the very good things about the Chia is that “real” pools will not run their own nodes like the unofficial pools are now doing. This already makes a huge difference compared to say BTC, which has had issues with this.
Hpool will soon dissolve and switch to the new protocol. The biggest farmer after that i 1.6 EiB, don’t know if that is also a pool of sorts but in any case they are not big enough to be a concern.
The profitability of farming is essentially the same for small or large farmers (as soon as pools are ready). Sure large farmers will have some purchasing advantage to buy cheaper hardware and some cost saving for scale. But this I do not think will be enough to really tip the scale. If Chia is unprofitable to farm, then it will be (almost) as unprofitable for big farmers.
As long as it is profitable, joining a pool will do. If it is not profitable, people will leave.
IF corporations with masses of extra space (so little extra cost) start joining it might be a different story, but I doubt that many of those are eager, much too soon for such players and even then there are a lot of concerns to be addressed.
I don’t think Centralization is the issue - the pool protocol has features to reduce technical centralization (I don’t know about hpool)
I have a problem with the buggy software and lack of appropriate prioritization towards a large part of their current user base as of now (farmers) - it is not as if the project is short on funding/resources
I know it is not accurate, it’s just an unperfect example.
Let us go to a more extreme case.
If there is a farmer who owns 100% of the spaces and has 100 plots, the decentralization of the network is 0%.
If there is another farmer join and also has 100 plots, the decentralization of the network is 50%.
If there is a third farmer with 100 plots join, decentralization will become 66%.
There is a small guy with one plot joined, what is the decentralization for now? A quick calculation will be like 66.25%.
If there are 100 small guys with one plot joined in the network instead of one person. The decentralization will be approximate 77%. It is very close to another big guy with 100 plots in (75%).
In the other case. If there are 100 small guys in the network and there are no big guys exist. The decentralization of the network will be 99%.
That is how decentralization calculated. The number of individual farmers doesn’t matter. The number of farmer keys and pool keys doesn’t matter. The only thing matters are the number(size) of plots. The decentralization is not based on how many nodes there are in the network, but how the distribution of net space.
In order to attack the network, over 51% net space and the fastest timelord are necessary. HPool is a risk because they use third-party software to control all the spaces that join the pool. Official pool protocol is safe because the pool will not have access to anything that belongs to an individual farmer. So pools won’t able to use the space to get any advantage or attack the network.
Ideally, with official pool protocol. Even all the farmers join the same pool, it will not affect the decentralization of the network, because the individual farmer as a person has full control of their plot while the pool has 0 control over those plots.
This is nosense. It is something like:
“Hey, You can’t earn more only because You have invested more!!”
“Wait, what?”
“I want to be a milionare, please penalty big players”
If life was fair then we would would all get substantial returns on our investments of time and money.
Life is not fair.
In the real world, the peep with more capitol can make a better return. The big fish are as susceptible to Chia fail as the little and stand to lose more if it came to pass.
Many dove into Chia farming thinking that they were turning their computers into money machines.
The answer for you is a big NO.
On the long-term average, small farmers earn the same as the big guys with the same amount of space. That is you have 10TB and wait for 100 days is equal to a guy have 1PB in a single day.
XCH price has an impact on everyone in the network. If you think it is unprofitable, all the other people will think like that. No matter how much space they have. In another word, are you believe the big guy has lower costs than a small farmer in a specific amount of space? That is completely wrong. The big guy who owns a lot of space investment tons of $ and a small farmer can invest $0 and own something like 10TB because they could just use their existing machines for farming and no need to purchase anything.
The thesis of your claim “the small farmer still has to pay electricity costs and maintain his farm” does not make sense. Why do you think your 10TB rewards will not cover your cost? 10TB can win 0.00044XCH today. Which equivalent to $0.242 and you can get more than 3kWh(in the US) with this money. How would you spend 3kWh in a day for farming? Usually it less than 30W for farming 10TB for an individual farmer. [Fix, 0.00044XCH is per TB, 10 TB should be 0.0044XCH and $2.42]
You may say “but I won nothing with these 10TB”. That is why we have pools. To make your reward smother but not win 2XCH or nothing.
Also, please see Petition to Introduce a Reward/Penalty System - #71 by cccat that I replied to Voodoo. That is how decentralization calculated in Chia network. Small farmers like you really contribute very little to the whole network. More small farmers are good but won’t help decentralize as much as you think.
The maximum of the net space is limited by the price of XCH. There will be a balance point and that is economic. When diminishing marginal returns, nobody will add more space to the Chia network. It never goes to 1ZiB with a low price of XCH. That just not possible to happen.
Your solution won’t help decentralize the network but destroy it. Why? If big guys feel it is unprofitable or unequal in Chia gaming, they will quit. Only small farmers remaining in the network. Without the support of big guys, XCH price will go to cents of dollars. Also, since they’re only small farmers in the network, the total net space should be very low and the robustness of the network is lowthe as well. Hackers will be easy to attack the network with not much cost. Hackers can even easily take place of the whole network because no big guys compete for the net space with them. That will destroy the network.
If you really care about decentralization and wish Chia became stronger. You should learn something very basic about blockchain. Your thesis is based on the wrong assumption of blockchain in your imagination and that will lead to a wrong answer.
And many people dove into Chia because they had storage and computers they weren’t using or were underutilized (like me) and felt Chia was a way to maximize the usage of the computers. To me, Chia is not a “get rich quick scheme”. It is a the sort of thing I could get some extra cash or I could not.
Like most people you keep talking about millions… the small guy to earn as much as powerhouses. I never said such things. From what I’ve seen so far, Chia is no longer profitable for the small farmers and soon… a year from today or possibly more, they will be forced to quit.
If only a handful of data centers remain… the network will no longer be decentralized. I keep running in circles with a lot of members on this forum… I don’t think this place is a friendly place to be, quite the opposite it’s a very toxic environment with a lot of people calling names and being aggressive.
Does this make you feel better? Keep on doing it if it does, to me it doesn’t mean anything and never will.
If you want to convince me to listen, use logic and common sense.
I hoped to make a profit eventually farming Chia. I grossly underestimated total network growth. I have watched Chia’s price drop along with the rest of us.
Like me, you hoped to win/earn XCH. Now that may not work out for us.
Maybe I double down and expand if things get better … maybe I win a few coins using my existing setup and HODL. Maybe I never win a coin or maybe Chia rockets to 100K and we were all the smartest people in the world.
What would you expect him to say? :)) He is making millions now so obviously there issues flagged by members like myself are a nuisance to him. Well done to you for being loyal.
Bram could have been a little nicer about it and didn’t have to put it quite that way. As my mom always said “if you don’t have a nice word to say, don’t say it”. And my response would sometimes be: “This time it had to be said”. And I remember my mom telling me that no matter what, even if you don’t have a nice thing to say, don’t say it or don’t respond. We can all take that to heart. Even us (including myself sometimes) can take to that.
You really didn’t understand how Chia works. You misunderstand what does “decentralize” means. Blockchain should never looking for “equality”, it should be “equitable”.
